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imback31

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  1. I have a degree in physics and I can’t even understand what the theory is! Is he saying not allowing them to move would allow them to move too much and loosen? Or is he saying things have to move or they become brittle? (we're not talking taffy here) If he is saying the second first I don't understand how this material can become britlle by not moving enough, how would you store such a product? Second even if it were possible to become brittle by not moveing, who cares, it's not moving so nothing can crack it!
  2. No I don't think you should allow for any movement in heavly wieghed down pipes with large amounts of water pressure going through. Anytime you allow movement you allow for the jionts to losen, if that happens the likelyhood of a leak increases greatly. Yes less foam will allow you to fix these leaks when they happen easier, I'd rather prevent the leak. Very easy to see this, go see one of these spas and ask them to turn on and off the pumps a few times with the access door open, watch how much movement there is, when these pipes are supported there is none.
  3. Let me start by saying I like Artic Spas, I think they are a good product and almost bought one. Why didn't I? Because I couldn't understand why the salesperson needed to sell me on the tub based only on the energy savings, which he greatly exaggerated on. I had done lots of research on tubs going into the show room and knew at most a tub could save 30% yearly vs the other top tubs. Most well made tubs use about $30 a month, so I could save on the best tub in the world maybe $10 a month, or $120 a year, or $1200 in 10 years. Not that great vs the $10,000 price tag and the fact that Thermal Lock systems are not proven and enhance the chance of leaks due to the pipe movement. Every time I talked about filter, or jets the salesperson turned the conversation to cost to run. Now I see the guy above finding the need to do the same. All tub owners know it costs at least $5-$10 a month in chemicals to run a tub, and if you use it lots it costs more based on what you bring into the tub, so the person who spends $15 a month on chemicals and energy in the winter at 102 must not enter the tub at all! In the world of things, 10k for your tub, 8k for your deck, 2k for the furniture, 1k for that new bbq, $25 a day in beer when you have friends over, don’t be scared by the whole energy argument at all, wet test your tub, research the builder, make sure a tech is within your area and enjoy your purchase.
  4. How about we talk honestly about this topic for one second. First let’s be very clear about human nature, when a person buys something it is only natural for them to justify the purchase to others no matter why they bought it, if they purchased it because of price they will tell all their friends how great a deal they got, if it was some feature the salesperson hooked them on they will again tell all their friends they have to have that feature. This is why salespeople can be so successful, they find that hot button and use it. Well Costco already knows what their customer’s hot button is, it’s price. In fact these people will even PAY to believe they are saving money, (in fact they are just buying more of something when they normally wouldn’t or are making rushed purchases based on the idea the product won’t be there when they come back). This is all fact. Next Costco must make money, yes they are willing to make much less margins then others, but there still must be a minimum profit. Thirdly the manufacturer of any product that supplies to Costco must do their best to present an offer that cannot be had elsewhere, (this is a requirement when dealing with Costco) but at the same time the supplier must not upset their other dealers. Suppliers understand dealing with Costco is not usually long term. So now let’s look at this spa, yes for sure it is a good deal on the surface, seems pretty loaded compared to others at the same price, (exactly what Costco wants), but where do they skimp, insulation is one place we know, delivery is another, on site service is a huge one, and some say quality, that part I have no idea if true. I am not taking a side on this, in Canada this tub is under $4700 and has a lot bell and whistles, but it will clearly cost more then most to run and will be much more work to get home, installed and serviced then a name brand spa. I just wanted people to know how they work, and why you see people here defending the purchase or attacking it.
  5. The reason I felt I should post was the fact that I am an RSM for a large sales force and what I see from the people pushing these 'thermal lock' type systems is exactly what I have seen from other sales people who have a product that does not stand up to ours and need a way to keep selling theirs. (I'm not saying that this system does not stand up to others in this case, I am saying I was educated on why full foam is as good or better for heat retention, and MUCH better in keeping the tub from falling apart). The idea of an air gab is not used in any other type of insulating situation, not houses, not airplanes, nothing, (nobody say thermos because that is a true vacuum and works much different). If this idea really added anything to the insulating properties then other industries would have adopted it too, they haven’t. I believe that anyone who purchases one of these tubs based on saving money when it runs is making a mistake, if they purchase it because they love how it feels, love the look of it and want the peace of mind that if something does fail it may be easier to fix then good for them and enjoy the purchase. I purchased mine based on feel, look, peace of mind with the company’s warranty and construction methods and the way the filter worked.
  6. I live in Winnipeg MB, average temp in winter is -20 to -30 C, I have full foam and most friends have full foam, I have one friend with a very similar Artic Spa with the thermal lock system. His cost for heating his tub is almost exactly the same as ours. No matter what anyone says there is very little to no savings in real world use with these types of tubs. So the real question is do you want to allow your pumps to run in the summer months in a non-cooling environment, where heat will slowly destroy them, and do you want your plumbing to hang free and slowly work themselves loose until they leak. Heating a gap of air may sound like a good idea but the area that is gapped will have leaks around the door of the pump access, (this can’t be stopped), so when it is -20 outside go stand beside your best sealed door in your house, and feel the cool entering your house, this is what is happening in this gap. There is other science that says the vessel of water, whether it is colder or warmer then the gap has more potential energy, therefore it will either leak heat or cool to the gap rather then gain heat from this gap. If it were really easy to heat the tub from below with hot air then these companies would use it as the sole way to heat the water, saving wear and tear on the current heater method and also heating the tub evenly, but again this does not work so they don’t do it.
  7. Just to be clear to all I found this website after being asked some questions from a friend who is buying a spa soon. (we bought a Coast spa last year from a dealer in Winnipeg, love it and made the purchase based on how I liked the filtration system vs others). I love this fight with Jim you are all having. Do I agree with either side, I’d say I’m leaning to the vs Jim side so I’d like to pose a few questions and want straight answers if he cares to answer at all; I do know that it may take a bit more time to fix a leak on my full foam, but I also understand that the foam does support the fittings and piping, therefore reducing the number one reason for leaks. Can Jim point me to a study in which leaks are proven to be as likely in both designs? I understand the theory why they would not be, and I would take the spa with less chance of leaks vs the one that is easier to fix any day. Next, both his brand and the similar Artic Spas claim that they use the heat from the pumps to heat the water therefore saving you money. If this is true and the rules of thermodynamics have changed in a way that large bodies of water can be affected by such small amounts of heat while being transferred between a fibreglass/acrylic shells, when all true science points to an opposite effect, why wouldn’t these companies take the next logical step and use air heating under the shell as the only way to heat the tub? That would eliminate failure of the heating systems used now. Or is this purely a myth like my third year physics professor taught me? I have also seen Jim say the only reason the ‘top’ manufactures don’t insulate like his company is that they want to save money and also don’t want to admit they are ‘wrong’. I’m sorry to point out that in business if there is a provable way to show you have an advantage over the competitor and you have the ability to you it you do. If it mean greater cost you still do it, (you just have one with that option and one without). I know of no other business that would shy away from an advantage like this, (if it were true). So that means one of two things, all these other companies are just dumb, or this advantage is either not true or so slight that a consumer will not benefit from it. I would have to guess since this business is so cut throat that it is the latter. Jim please don’t answer this one, just listen, having a gap between the object you want to heat and the insulation doesn’t work on anything else, not on houses, not on pipes, not on anything I know of, so I must assume this is true with heated water, come to think of it the design of water heaters have no air gaps. The properties of insulation are not to carry heat, so they will not add to the heat loss, and as far as the piping they will insulate them too during power outages, however you are correct the heat from the water would do a better job based on your design, again since the heat from the water, (or the cool) will transfer to the air cavity and not vice versa. The simple truth to this is that there is no great advantage to Jim’s tub’s system or it would be used universally no matter what he says, the top makers at some point said yes to full foam when they were not using it, they were not ashamed to say they found something better, and they would not be here. This is the number one way salespeople sell these things, find something different about their tub and do whatever it takes to make the consumer think they need it, look it worked for my with Coast’s filter!
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