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Arctic Spa Or The Young Upstart H2ospas? Advice Please...


great white

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So we’ve got it narrowed down to two spa models:

Arctic spas 2009 Glacier and (a newer company) H2ospas 2009 Radium Therapy model.

Both are Canadian companies and we intend to purchase Canadian. Not as a result of some sense of “patriotism” (although it is a nice plus), but because construction on Canadian models seems much more suited to the Canadian climate (insulation, construction materials, cover strength, etc). Kind of makes sense when you think about it: can a California manufacturer ever understand 3 feet of snowfall overnight, 4 months of rain (BC) or -25 C temps?

I think not…….Canadian manufacturer it is.

The spa is only for my wife and I, mainly for relaxing but I also intend to use it for “therapy”. I am in military Search and Rescue flying the Cormorant helicopter and I have various strains and injuries from my job that heat and massage will help (according to the doctors).

The arctic spa seems a nice piece. It’s essentially a 41 inch deep 2 seater with and option for 3 or 4, but only if you don’t mind getting “cozy” in the foot well. The thing we like about it is the quality “feel” it has, the waterfall design, handsome cedar cabinet, good construction, useful cup holders, what appears to be very comfortable seating and it’s fairly intimate as we sit side by side but in our own loungers instead of at the extreme corners. It’s even designed as a “his and her” tub with a different contour in each lounger that fits the wife and I very well. With all those (somewhat) exclusive features comes a worry of proprietary parts. In this economy and businesses folding like houses of cards, the word "proprietary" is a very bad thing. Lots of the forums have complaints about Arctic with things like popping jets, but this model is all screw in jets. Unfortunately, it only has blue led lights in the foot well and no “northern lights”. I suspect this could be added by changing the led or a controller at worst. No “ozenator”, but I’m OK with that as there seems to a lot of complaints related to it. Good “old fashioned” chemicals for us. It's also not very easy to get in and out of as there are no steps to lead you down into that deep tub. The biggest hitch is the thing is terribly expensive, even with the year end sale prices we’re looking at around 11,000 out the door.

The other model is a newer company known as h2ospas. It grew out of pacific spas (recently bankrupted) when a couple of employees split off 4-5 years ago after seeing the “writing on the wall” for pacific spas solvency. Pacific spas were reputed to be pretty high quality units. The dealer used to sell Pacific and had a customer’s spa in the back with all the new H20 models. After seeing the two side by side, design and construction is almost identical, not surprising as the shop owner related the H2ospas owner was the one who designed the particular tub model for both pacific (when employed there) and H2o that were sitting side by side. The unit is not as pretty as the Arctic spa with a traditional looking cabinet, but it is 40 inches deep, comfortable (even when dry) and uses quality (but generic) hot tub components. Other features we liked were HUGE foot well compared to all other makers and very large steps into the tub (important as we get older or for kids. It is also available with more options (albeit not necessary ones - speakers, rainbow lights, waterfalls, etc) than the arctic spa at a nicer $8400 less out the door.

Both dealers threw in entrance steps and cover lifters, although the H20 spas dealer (Clarks the water shop in Campbell River BC) threw in a double shock cover lifter that folds down behind the spa and the arctic dealer was just a pivoting model.

Both related they could be placed on a flat but unprepared surface (even grass if solid enough), mainly as a result of the sealed bottom (forever floor for arctic, poly/abs floor for H2o). Since I’m in the military and moved on average every 3-5 years, not having to pour a slab each time is a potential cost savings in the future for us. It also means a yard is relatively easily returned to it’s original state, a plus when you sell your house and wanted the area grassed instead of a big blank concrete slab.

The other thing we liked about the H2ospas is "ship-ability". The arctic has a very nice Cedar cabinet that I would not expect to ship well on its side. Movers are notorious for damaging items when moving military members, and the H2ospas clean flat sides would ship well with less chance of damage. Heck even the H2ospas dealer stores them on thier side in the back to get more in there. As a side note, everyone I know (in the military) who has had their spa moved has been shipped on its side. This was actually a feature that turned us off on beachcomber- having the mechanicals sticking out instead of tucked in neatly presented a high probability of shipping damage for us.

So, anyone have any advice or experience with either the Glacier or Raduim (h2ospas.ca) before we part with our hard earned cash?

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can a California manufacturer ever understand 3 feet of snowfall overnight, 4 months of rain (BC) or -25 C temps?

I think not…….Canadian manufacturer it is.

I wonder if the Malaysians know how to make cold weather jackets (North Face) I think your leaving out allot of great manufacturers if you believe that only Canadians can make cold weather tubs. But if it makes you feel better, look at Beachcomber also made in Canada. And even though the most effiecient tub made today is made in California, but you have counted them out, at least you'll have another to add to your choices.

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can a California manufacturer ever understand 3 feet of snowfall overnight, 4 months of rain (BC) or -25 C temps?

I think not…….Canadian manufacturer it is.

I wonder if the Malaysians know how to make cold weather jackets (North Face) I think your leaving out allot of great manufacturers if you believe that only Canadians can make cold weather tubs. But if it makes you feel better, look at Beachcomber also made in Canada. And even though the most effiecient tub made today is made in California, but you have counted them out, at least you'll have another to add to your choices.

Thanks for your response, but the point doesn't ring true for me. Most of the models from the states don't seem to consider our harsher climate and it's requirements. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying products from the states are poor quality or inferior, just that the materials and construction is different. Diffent enough to warrant purchasing a more "climate specifc" product.

Also, I'm not so sure of the "most efficient" being made in california. I suppose that depends on your testing criteria. The Alberta research council tested 8 spas, Arctic and beachcomber came out on top of some expensive states manufacturers (hot springs and sundance comes to mind). At the very least, ahead of the States models that are available for purchase in my area and I'm not interested in purchasing online/shipping from out of province....

I have also considered beachcomber, but have discounted them for reasons other than efficiency. They seem a good quality tub, and I've heard lots of good comments about them (even by competitors) but it won't suit or needs/requirements as mentioned about shipping in our original post.

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We just received our H2O Canyon Luxury a few days ago and am waiting for the electrical hook-up (tomorrow). We researched for about 6 mos. and wet tested all tubs. We focused on Beachcomber, Arctic Spa, Artesian, D1, Jacuzzi and H20. We settled on Artesian and H2O, they just felt right to us. Wet tested both again and discussed with the dealers topics like service, customer care warranty etc and settled on an H2O. Price was pretty much the same. When it came down to the final deal, after going with H2O, the dealer gave an amazing price. We initially were looking at Arctic Spa because my parents have one, but after reading posts on this board and others regarding their service and quality control our red flags went up. What finally pushed us away was different info 2 separate Arctic sales people gave us in the same day concerning their product/warranties. They also quickly put down any competitors tubs as inferior. Again the H2O seemed to fit us the best, it may/will be different for you. Wet test, wet test, wet test.

We are in Ottawa, Ont. So we know cold as well!!

Hope this helps

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Thanks for your response, but the point doesn't ring true for me. Most of the models from the states don't seem to consider our harsher climate and it's requirements. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying products from the states are poor quality or inferior, just that the materials and construction is different. Diffent enough to warrant purchasing a more "climate specifc" product.

Also, I'm not so sure of the "most efficient" being made in california. I suppose that depends on your testing criteria. The Alberta research council tested 8 spas, Arctic and beachcomber came out on top of some expensive states manufacturers (hot springs and sundance comes to mind). At the very least, ahead of the States models that are available for purchase in my area and I'm not interested in purchasing online/shipping from out of province....

I have also considered beachcomber, but have discounted them for reasons other than efficiency. They seem a good quality tub, and I've heard lots of good comments about them (even by competitors) but it won't suit or needs/requirements as mentioned about shipping in our original post.

Dude, you have been drinking waaaay too much Arctic Kool-aid!! Do some searches in here and around the web and read some of the experiences other Arctic owners have had. I try to buy Canadian as much as I can too, for example, almost all of my son's goalie equipment is high-quality, Canadian made stuff. But - first and foremost, it has to be high-quality for me to even consider it. I would not buy a Canadian product simply because it was made here, if it was inferior to something else that happened to be made south of the border. If you buy a hot tub strictly because you think that the best tubs for our climates HAVE to be made here in Canada, you are sadly mistaken and may end up with an inferior, Canadian-made product. Other than the Arctic propaganda, what research have you done to make you so sure that products made in the States can't handle our harsher climate and it's requirements? Can you post a link to the Alberta Research Council test results? Seems to me that you have swallowed Arctic's sales pitch, hook - line - and sinker! Just out of curiosity, have they tried to push you into Peroxysan too?

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Personally, I wouldn't care where a tub is made. What matters is how well the tub is built, and how well it was designed/engineered. Where a particular engineer lives isn't nearly as important as whether he/she is a good engineer.

I'm not trying to say that Arctic is good or bad. I'm just saying that the location of the factory & its employees, at least from a quality standpoint, is irrelevant. If you had to buy snow tires, would you buy ones designed by an engineer in Malaysia or a kid at McDonald's in Finland? If you had to buy a beach umbrella, would you buy one made by an engineer in Canada or a beach bum in Tahiti? In both cases, you'd go with the well-engineered one, right?

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Great white,

the H20 line is a very good line, i sell those and the D1 line, the things i like on the H20 spas that are different then anyone else, the 3 tier entry step, the large footwell , the seating depth, your not sitting on the floor so you can actually have more people sit in the smaller tubs without playing footsie, the synthetic skirting ,,,no maintenance like the cedar, also flat sides no 2x2 sticking out at the edge of the acrylic, water will not build up there. also there insulation, the use roxul insulation, big in the canadian housing industry, they run there 2 1/2 inch lines which are larger can move more volume of water. they run those around the spa on the insualted floor base, thus the do not need to support any pipe of the jetbacks. and as for artics story of ez access to make repairs, all the sides come off for access and the roxul comes in batts , ez to remove, i have had them for 4 years with one leaks. also look at the pump compartment very clean with the abs doghouse, also they use the 24 hour circ pump not the main pump every 12 hours to run. more efficient with the circ pump. the lighting they use in the waterfall the large (4 lights) surround the footwell also the lights in the cup holder( it shines up through your glass) call the factory talk to Mark he is the sales manager, talk to him ,he will talk to you even though you are not a dealer. you will be suprised, also the story for jets popping out, i see that happen with spas that run with bromine, its funny waterway makes most of the jets on spas yes they now make them with threads now. my personal hot tub is 14 years old mostly all spinners and have not replaced one ........any questions you need let me know or you can pm me. good luck with your shopping, by the way im in Spokane Washington, not Canada

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Also, I'm not so sure of the "most efficient" being made in california. I suppose that depends on your testing criteria. The Alberta research council tested 8 spas, Arctic and beachcomber came out on top of some expensive states manufacturers (hot springs and sundance comes to mind). At the very least, ahead of the States models that are available for purchase in my area and I'm not interested in purchasing online/shipping from out of province....

I think if you look at the ARC study sponsored by Arctic and read it yourself rather than listening to a salesman you'll see the Hot Springs tub came out on top of the Arctic. And if you consider 80 percent of the heat loss is from the cover and the Arctic had a 2 inch thicker cover than the HS. Just think what would of happened if you upgraded the cover on the HS for a couple hundred bucks. Your being led astray by a sales pitch. There's nothing wrong with either brand your looking at but to think only a Canadian made tub is good for your climate is just plain ignorance, no offense. I live in Northern Minnesota and our climate is just as cold as almost all the major populated areas of Canada and colder than most. And Hot Springs, D1, Sundance, Marquis are very popular here, along with Arctic and Beachcomber.

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Thanks for your response, but the point doesn't ring true for me. Most of the models from the states don't seem to consider our harsher climate and it's requirements. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying products from the states are poor quality or inferior, just that the materials and construction is different. Diffent enough to warrant purchasing a more "climate specifc" product.

Also, I'm not so sure of the "most efficient" being made in california. I suppose that depends on your testing criteria. The Alberta research council tested 8 spas, Arctic and beachcomber came out on top of some expensive states manufacturers (hot springs and sundance comes to mind). At the very least, ahead of the States models that are available for purchase in my area and I'm not interested in purchasing online/shipping from out of province....

I have also considered beachcomber, but have discounted them for reasons other than efficiency. They seem a good quality tub, and I've heard lots of good comments about them (even by competitors) but it won't suit or needs/requirements as mentioned about shipping in our original post.

Dude, you have been drinking waaaay too much Arctic Kool-aid!! Do some searches in here and around the web and read some of the experiences other Arctic owners have had. I try to buy Canadian as much as I can too, for example, almost all of my son's goalie equipment is high-quality, Canadian made stuff. But - first and foremost, it has to be high-quality for me to even consider it. I would not buy a Canadian product simply because it was made here, if it was inferior to something else that happened to be made south of the border. If you buy a hot tub strictly because you think that the best tubs for our climates HAVE to be made here in Canada, you are sadly mistaken and may end up with an inferior, Canadian-made product. Other than the Arctic propaganda, what research have you done to make you so sure that products made in the States can't handle our harsher climate and it's requirements? Can you post a link to the Alberta Research Council test results? Seems to me that you have swallowed Arctic's sales pitch, hook - line - and sinker! Just out of curiosity, have they tried to push you into Peroxysan too?

"Dude", I think you need to re-read the original post....I have no idea what a "peroxysan" product is. I assume it has something to due with hydrogen peroxide and it must be an arctic spa product, judging by your "tone". As for research, how about tearing around inside the guts of the local dealers floor models and checking out components and construction. Then talking to the repair tech s out back, who don't have the "slick sales pitch" down pat. Yeah, one dealer wasn't very happy when I walked away after having them pull the skirting off the tub so I could see what the frame was constructed of, routing of the piping and construction, asking for a core cutout from on of the tubs and writing down what type of pump and motors were in there. Is that enough research? I've done that with all the tubs I looked at. Artic spa made a point of how accessible their stuff was (and it was), but the H20 guy pulled all the roxul insulation out around the tub for me (and there was a lot!). Quite accommodating and apparently nothing to hide. He even let me use his shop computer to research the components (with google, not dealer "propaganda").

Great white,

the H20 line is a very good line, i sell those and the D1 line, the things i like on the H20 spas that are different then anyone else, the 3 tier entry step, the large footwell , the seating depth, your not sitting on the floor so you can actually have more people sit in the smaller tubs without playing footsie, the synthetic skirting ,,,no maintenance like the cedar, also flat sides no 2x2 sticking out at the edge of the acrylic, water will not build up there. also there insulation, the use roxul insulation, big in the canadian housing industry, they run there 2 1/2 inch lines which are larger can move more volume of water. they run those around the spa on the insualted floor base, thus the do not need to support any pipe of the jetbacks. and as for artics story of ez access to make repairs, all the sides come off for access and the roxul comes in batts , ez to remove, i have had them for 4 years with one leaks. also look at the pump compartment very clean with the abs doghouse, also they use the 24 hour circ pump not the main pump every 12 hours to run. more efficient with the circ pump. the lighting they use in the waterfall the large (4 lights) surround the footwell also the lights in the cup holder( it shines up through your glass) call the factory talk to Mark he is the sales manager, talk to him ,he will talk to you even though you are not a dealer. you will be suprised, also the story for jets popping out, i see that happen with spas that run with bromine, its funny waterway makes most of the jets on spas yes they now make them with threads now. my personal hot tub is 14 years old mostly all spinners and have not replaced one ........any questions you need let me know or you can pm me. good luck with your shopping, by the way im in Spokane Washington, not Canada

Thank you for an intelligent and well thought out response. This is what I have found out about the H2o tubs also. They are currently our first choice and wet testing begins this week.

D1 is not available around here (at least, no one carries it), so it's not really an option for us. I want a dealer I can "look in the eye" when dealing with service/warranty issues, not some anonymous voice on the other end of a phone. Just the way I do business. Oddly enough, you've told me pretty much everything my local H2o guy did, right down to giving me the number for Mark in Delta if I wanted to call him (dealer says he actually used to work with him building tubs with him when they were with Pacific). My H20 spa guy has also been in business 25 years, he's got a clue or two about tubs. He's also the first guy who didn't slag all the other tub models. Integrity and an ethical approach to things goes a long way with me. He was also wiling to put it in writing that he would honor the 5 year warranty even if H2ospas went under. They have only been around 5 years as a manufacturer, but I question what's really going on as it still seems to be an "Aber" corporation of some sort as Pacific tubs was.....Hmmm...... :huh:

Also, I'm not so sure of the "most efficient" being made in california. I suppose that depends on your testing criteria. The Alberta research council tested 8 spas, Arctic and beachcomber came out on top of some expensive states manufacturers (hot springs and sundance comes to mind). At the very least, ahead of the States models that are available for purchase in my area and I'm not interested in purchasing online/shipping from out of province....

I think if you look at the ARC study sponsored by Arctic and read it yourself rather than listening to a salesman you'll see the Hot Springs tub came out on top of the Arctic. And if you consider 80 percent of the heat loss is from the cover and the Arctic had a 2 inch thicker cover than the HS. Just think what would of happened if you upgraded the cover on the HS for a couple hundred bucks. Your being led astray by a sales pitch. There's nothing wrong with either brand your looking at but to think only a Canadian made tub is good for your climate is just plain ignorance, no offense. I live in Northern Minnesota and our climate is just as cold as almost all the major populated areas of Canada and colder than most. And Hot Springs, D1, Sundance, Marquis are very popular here, along with Arctic and Beachcomber.

I have seen the report, I have read it. I'm not going off the "dealers sales pitch". Sponsored or not, arctic spas rated higher on that particular evaluation. Conspiracy theories can be whatever they are going to be. The Arctic model we are looking at has a standard 4/3 cover. If you as saying that other spas come with a 2/1 cover (they don't), well.....I'll take my money elsewhere then, thank you. I'll also guarantee you it gets colder in Saskatchewan or northern Alberta than it does in Duluth (yup, I've been there in the winter,cold but not as cold)....nothing personal, it just does.

For the record, If there was a local seller that provided a tub from the states that was the same construction and quality as the candian tubs I've been looking at, I would consider or buy it. But, the tubs I have seen here (Calspa for example) aren't.

As I said, nothing against models built in the states, but if there are ones that of equal quality, I haven't seen them here. The ones here aren't bad tubs, the just don't measure up to what we are looking for.

I'm buying Canadian only because in my area, the tubs are better quality. Most likely not because southern companies make and inferior tub, but more likely the higher end models are cost prohibitive and hard for the dealer to move once shipped cross border with taxes and duties. Not to mention the cost of the shipping itself. These aren't small or light items....

Let's get past all this national pride stuff shall we. This was only meant to solicit opinions on these models, not turn into a Canada vs States bashing thing. Southern manufactured tubs are most likely good quality tubs, but the local dealers here have not impressed me with them. As I said, they most likely bring in less expensive models due to high shipping costs and cross border fees. It seems because of this, I can get a tub from a Canadian manufacturer at the same price that is higher quality and has more features.

Ain't free trade wonderful?

;)

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Great White:I have owned a H2O Radium Luxury for four months now and if you decide to get one, based on my experience you wont regret it.I researched hot tubs for quite a while and we decided on this one because of construction, size and for me this model runs quite happily on just a forty amp breaker which suited my purposes. As well the other features mentioned also were not in other brands.The lounger in this tub is fantastic too.If you need any more info just let me know.

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I'll also guarantee you it gets colder in Saskatchewan or northern Alberta than it does in Duluth (yup, I've been there in the winter,cold but not as cold)....nothing personal, it just does.

I did not know you lived in the middle of nowhere in Northern Sas or Northern Alberta. Edmonton, Regina and Winnepeg are about the same as here. There is not allot of people or populated areas up there. I have been there also. But it's roads resorts and loggers, never hot tubs!! Most of the people in Canada are on the coasts. The oceans keeps it a bit warmer than here.

So if you read the report from ARC you know the HS came out on top. Never disscount a tub because of where it's manufactured, your OP came off that way, discount them because they are not available in your area sure.

Of the 2 on your list neither are in my top 3, Arctic makes the top 5, but both are fine products. I have not seen H2O yet but have checked them out online. Longevity figures will be difficult to get. I like some of the things I see. A wet test should help you decide. No matter how well you think it is constructed or will last the test of time in your climate. What's the point if it is uncomfortable, noisy and not the right product for you.

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Great White,

Glad to hear you have interest in Arctic Spas. They build a very solid spa from the floor up. I can only speak on the Arctic, but the model you are looking at(Glacier) is a very comfortable spa. People that come into my store in sit in that spa usually buy that one. You are correct that every Arctic comes with the 5x4 cover. Also, you can add the Northern Lights to any spa at any time if you would like, as well as the ozonator if desired. Make sure to wet test both, and also do your research on your local dealers as that is almost as important as the brand of spa you are looking at. Good luck in your search, and let me know if you have any more questions in regards to the Arctic Spas!

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Both are Canadian companies and we intend to purchase Canadian. Not as a result of some sense of “patriotism” (although it is a nice plus), but because construction on Canadian models seems much more suited to the Canadian climate (insulation, construction materials, cover strength, etc). Kind of makes sense when you think about it: can a California manufacturer ever understand 3 feet of snowfall overnight, 4 months of rain (BC) or -25 C temps?

I think not…….

This was only meant to solicit opinions on these models, not turn into a Canada vs States bashing thing.

But it was your first post that started this and you have to understand, we've seen that BS statement that California spa companies don't know how to build spas for cold climates. I'm not sure how many northern salesmen use that crazy line but when people mindlessly repeat it here there are always responses to that because it's lame. Yes, there are a few US spa companies that make a spa that is not well insulated but it has nothing to do with what country or state they are in. Hot Spring in known as a well insulated spa made in Southern California while Master and Thermospas do not have a great reputation for energy use and they are made in Indiana and Connecticut respectively which is a lot colder than California so they should know better by your logic.

Just get a well insulated spa and don't worry so much about where it is made or if you want to feel patriotic and buy Canadian then by all means, do so. I own 3 American made cars and readily admit part of the reason is I wanted to buy American, there is nothing wrong with that.

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Hi Great White,

Firstly, a sincere thank you for considering our product. I know quite a few military and commercial pilots worldwide that have become interested in our spas - I do believe that time in one of our spas (particularly a Glacier, more on this later) would provide you with the therapy you are looking for. I also wanted to thank you for the career you have chosen - for guy like me who heads to your part of the world whenever possible (love salmon/halibut fishing!) its always a reassuring feeling to see your equipment when I land in Victoria or Comox. Thank you for your service to our country! Having said that, I really hope I never need a ride...:)

Anyhow, back to the spas...I will try to add some information relevant to your post, and to wade through the posts that have followed your initial, and will attempt to correct the numerous inaccuracies strewn about.

Therapy - You are considering what I believe to be the most therapeutic spa in our current lineup. Particularly in the men's, or deeper therapy seat you have a fantastic arrangement of 5" rotating bearing-less jets. (As you have pointed out, all Arctics are now 100% equipped with thread-in/out jets.) The Glacier was the first mould design I had when I started with Arctic and having used so many spas since then, both of our and other manufacture, its still stands out in terms of its ability to give a great powerful massage. As an additional note, if you are considering a Signature or Ultra jetting package (2 pump versions), you will have the ability to have the entire flow rate of one pump (270 gal/min) to either side of the spa - you don't have to divert any flow at all. In my experience, with all the jets active and the venturi air at full, its all I could take. Of course you can dial this back in several ways, but...like passing speed in a car, its nice to have if you want it! The other item I would mention in terms of therapy, and I do hope you experience this in wet test, is the comfort provided by dual level armrests in these therapy seats. Until you have a spa without, then with armrests, you can't fully appreciate the relief that they offer.

Shipping - All Arctic Spas are shipped vertically all around the globe. Over the past 2 years we have worked on our packaging to improve it as well - the product that is shipped today has high-density polystyrene bumpers that fit tightly on all the rail corners (8 in total) and are reusable. The product is also wrapped in thin layer of foam sheet before it is shrink wrapped. I would suggest keeping the bumpers with you (and pallet if possible) and shrink wrapping the spa when its move time again. To say our cabinet is strong would be an understatement, however one should also consider the shell strength when talking about moving these things around. I know of no other self - supporting shell in the world, and we continue to improve on that strength. (i.e. - Our new fiberglass resin technology (N.E.A.T.) is now 100% filler-free and allows us to build more strength into each mm of thickness.) If a transfer to the east coast is a possibility we have great dealers in that part of Canada as well...:)

Foundation - There is currently no stronger floor in the world than a Forever Floor. Period. There are manufacturers out there that have pushed this forward this past year, and that's a great thing - but a SMC pressure moulded floor is still a lot stronger than an ABS vac-moulded product, (which is basically the next best thing). You can place a Forever Floor-equipped Arctic on any level surface with the fullest confidence that it will not have an issue. I would take my due diligence to compare between what a salesman claims, and what the warranty says on this point. It is fairly common practice in my experience, for salesmen to overstate this claim when they are up against Arctic for their commission. Most warranties will have a phrase similar to "must be on an approved surface", or an "engineered pad" which is the out for them when your shell cracks due to torsional load it cannot handle, i.e. - from an uneven foundation. "Approved" is open to a great deal of interpretation, little of which will be on your side I can assure you. I know at Arctic we have never denied a shell failure claim based on surface preparation. Caveat emptor ...

Strength is key, but the ability to resist the intrusion of moisture and pests is important too. Any floor that flexes opens the possibility for this to happen. Lastly, in your situation, the grooves that are moulded into the floor will come in handy on move day!

Cover Strength - A Castcore Mylovac cover can support over 1000lbs. per side. It truly is the definition of "made for the world's harshest climates." Taking into consideration the considerable time and money we've spent to create this cover we are acknowledging that heat does in fact rise, and that consistently and effectively trapping that rising heat should be a big priority. Manufacturers who trumpet insulation below or to the side of the thermal mass, but largely ignore the placement of effective insulation on top of that thermal mass cause me to question the integrity of their insulation argument. The Castcore Mylovac cover certainly is one of the key attributes that has grown from the geographic location we R&D our product. Seeing hundreds and hundreds of covers collapse under heavy ice/snow loads, and then creating and testing and providing something better is a result of the fairly unique experience to those who inhabit, and want to hot tub in the beautiful northern parts of the world.

Efficiency - Ah, the quagmire of efficiency. To the good side of this, society's attention to green issues has begun to ratchet up attention on efficiency within the spa industry. I think between this, and the current economic conditions, we are seeing fewer of the really, really bad energy-use offenders out there. The California Energy Compliance Testing that was done earlier this year has been a start, but self-reporting has lead to some fairly comical statements. IMHO Cal Poly's testing is fraught with inaccuracies and is going to require a lot of work before it really represents any real benefit to the consumer. On the topic of testing, Blue Falls Manufacturing (manufacturer of Arctic Spas) is working with the Canadian Federal Government to develop a much more relevant set of testing criteria for the spa industry domestically - however at this time the Alberta Reseach Council's report on Thermal Performance Test of Spas remains, to my knowledge, the only 3rd party scientific study done on cold weather efficiency of hot tubs. What this test clearly stated (and I believe as you read, accurately) was that Arctic Spas use less power, particularly as the temperature drops, than any other of the spas in this study. I am not sure what confused other posters on this topic, the results are quite clear and quite decisive in the favor of the Arctic product.

Filtration - It has been our experience that 24 hour filtration is useful in our climate only to prevent stationary water in uninsulated equipment enclosures from freezing. Circulation pumps are not expressly "more efficient", they are typically not rebuildable and, in our opinion, they are a redundant piece of equipment. Additionally, to provide the power that our Active Filtration system requires, a small circulation pump would be completely inadequate. They simply cannot draw water effectively through a depth filter like our 1 micron Silver Sentinel. One of our pumps on low speed uses a very comparable amount of energy to accomplish the same task as a 24 filtration pump, and as it does so, it adds to the ambient heat inside the cabinet, which in turn, reduces heater cycles.

Cost - Yep, ours usually cost more money. EMG motors cost more. Reflex Torsion hose costs more. Resin is going through the roof. Gecko MSpa Packs cost more than SSpa, or most others. Having people hand roll fiberglass in (3) three stages costs a startling amount of money, particularly in Alberta where the coffee guy makes $20/hr. On and on it goes. Here, we are up to our eyeballs in engineers and R&D guys, they outnumber sales people like 9 to 1, and neither work cheap...I say cost is the cost of finding solutions, not just summarily reassembling parts that are "adequate", putting a different pillow logo in and calling it the best.

You know, I guess I am I'm biased...*L*...I have drank the cool-aid, I wear the underwear. I have also been to most of our competitors show rooms, I have listened to their sales pitches with an open mind over and over again, and battled for deals all over this continent.

But, and I truly believe this - an Arctic will likely be the last spa you buy. As one of our owners has said - "we never intended to be known as the biggest, just the best..."

Whew...lots to think about. Maybe we can take it all back to the part where its fun to be in this thing? IMHO, the Glacier is one of the most comfortable spas we have ever built, and I particularly liked the seating arrangement as my wife and I could together look out across what another poster so kindly called "the middle of nowhere".

If I can be of any help whatsoever, just PM.

All the Best, in whichever spa is best for you.

Sincerely,

Vern

So we’ve got it narrowed down to two spa models:

Arctic spas 2009 Glacier and (a newer company) H2ospas 2009 Radium Therapy model.

Both are Canadian companies and we intend to purchase Canadian. Not as a result of some sense of “patriotism” (although it is a nice plus), but because construction on Canadian models seems much more suited to the Canadian climate (insulation, construction materials, cover strength, etc). Kind of makes sense when you think about it: can a California manufacturer ever understand 3 feet of snowfall overnight, 4 months of rain (BC) or -25 C temps?

I think not…….Canadian manufacturer it is.

The spa is only for my wife and I, mainly for relaxing but I also intend to use it for “therapy”. I am in military Search and Rescue flying the Cormorant helicopter and I have various strains and injuries from my job that heat and massage will help (according to the doctors).

The arctic spa seems a nice piece. It’s essentially a 41 inch deep 2 seater with and option for 3 or 4, but only if you don’t mind getting “cozy” in the foot well. The thing we like about it is the quality “feel” it has, the waterfall design, handsome cedar cabinet, good construction, useful cup holders, what appears to be very comfortable seating and it’s fairly intimate as we sit side by side but in our own loungers instead of at the extreme corners. It’s even designed as a “his and her” tub with a different contour in each lounger that fits the wife and I very well. With all those (somewhat) exclusive features comes a worry of proprietary parts. In this economy and businesses folding like houses of cards, the word "proprietary" is a very bad thing. Lots of the forums have complaints about Arctic with things like popping jets, but this model is all screw in jets. Unfortunately, it only has blue led lights in the foot well and no “northern lights”. I suspect this could be added by changing the led or a controller at worst. No “ozenator”, but I’m OK with that as there seems to a lot of complaints related to it. Good “old fashioned” chemicals for us. It's also not very easy to get in and out of as there are no steps to lead you down into that deep tub. The biggest hitch is the thing is terribly expensive, even with the year end sale prices we’re looking at around 11,000 out the door.

The other model is a newer company known as h2ospas. It grew out of pacific spas (recently bankrupted) when a couple of employees split off 4-5 years ago after seeing the “writing on the wall” for pacific spas solvency. Pacific spas were reputed to be pretty high quality units. The dealer used to sell Pacific and had a customer’s spa in the back with all the new H20 models. After seeing the two side by side, design and construction is almost identical, not surprising as the shop owner related the H2ospas owner was the one who designed the particular tub model for both pacific (when employed there) and H2o that were sitting side by side. The unit is not as pretty as the Arctic spa with a traditional looking cabinet, but it is 40 inches deep, comfortable (even when dry) and uses quality (but generic) hot tub components. Other features we liked were HUGE foot well compared to all other makers and very large steps into the tub (important as we get older or for kids. It is also available with more options (albeit not necessary ones - speakers, rainbow lights, waterfalls, etc) than the arctic spa at a nicer $8400 less out the door.

Both dealers threw in entrance steps and cover lifters, although the H20 spas dealer (Clarks the water shop in Campbell River BC) threw in a double shock cover lifter that folds down behind the spa and the arctic dealer was just a pivoting model.

Both related they could be placed on a flat but unprepared surface (even grass if solid enough), mainly as a result of the sealed bottom (forever floor for arctic, poly/abs floor for H2o). Since I’m in the military and moved on average every 3-5 years, not having to pour a slab each time is a potential cost savings in the future for us. It also means a yard is relatively easily returned to it’s original state, a plus when you sell your house and wanted the area grassed instead of a big blank concrete slab.

The other thing we liked about the H2ospas is "ship-ability". The arctic has a very nice Cedar cabinet that I would not expect to ship well on its side. Movers are notorious for damaging items when moving military members, and the H2ospas clean flat sides would ship well with less chance of damage. Heck even the H2ospas dealer stores them on thier side in the back to get more in there. As a side note, everyone I know (in the military) who has had their spa moved has been shipped on its side. This was actually a feature that turned us off on beachcomber- having the mechanicals sticking out instead of tucked in neatly presented a high probability of shipping damage for us.

So, anyone have any advice or experience with either the Glacier or Raduim (h2ospas.ca) before we part with our hard earned cash?

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Thanks for your response, but the point doesn't ring true for me. Most of the models from the states don't seem to consider our harsher climate and it's requirements. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying products from the states are poor quality or inferior, just that the materials and construction is different. Diffent enough to warrant purchasing a more "climate specifc" product.

Also, I'm not so sure of the "most efficient" being made in california. I suppose that depends on your testing criteria. The Alberta research council tested 8 spas, Arctic and beachcomber came out on top of some expensive states manufacturers (hot springs and sundance comes to mind). At the very least, ahead of the States models that are available for purchase in my area and I'm not interested in purchasing online/shipping from out of province....

I have also considered beachcomber, but have discounted them for reasons other than efficiency. They seem a good quality tub, and I've heard lots of good comments about them (even by competitors) but it won't suit or needs/requirements as mentioned about shipping in our original post.

Dude, you have been drinking waaaay too much Arctic Kool-aid!! Do some searches in here and around the web and read some of the experiences other Arctic owners have had. I try to buy Canadian as much as I can too, for example, almost all of my son's goalie equipment is high-quality, Canadian made stuff. But - first and foremost, it has to be high-quality for me to even consider it. I would not buy a Canadian product simply because it was made here, if it was inferior to something else that happened to be made south of the border. If you buy a hot tub strictly because you think that the best tubs for our climates HAVE to be made here in Canada, you are sadly mistaken and may end up with an inferior, Canadian-made product. Other than the Arctic propaganda, what research have you done to make you so sure that products made in the States can't handle our harsher climate and it's requirements? Can you post a link to the Alberta Research Council test results? Seems to me that you have swallowed Arctic's sales pitch, hook - line - and sinker! Just out of curiosity, have they tried to push you into Peroxysan too?

Hi there,

The study is not available online, but I can email it to you as a PDF if you would like. The study is getting old, but to my knowledge its about all there is out there. The industry is make slowwww steps to create testing that may help customers make better informed decisions, but it will take time.

Peroxysan is not approved by Blue Falls Manufacturing, and dealers who have chosen to carry this product have been so advised.

Sincerely,

Vern

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That was a nice inflated sales pitch response. H2O uses Aquaflo xp3 pumps & a aquaflo circ master pump which is more than capable of pulling water through the new "super" filter from Arctic. H2O use the Gecko In.xe pack on their tubs which I find more durable the the MClass. "Reflex Torsion Hose" Seriously??? Lets be honest is just a pretty name. The floor is a great product but every maker that has now utilized a good sealed floor system can achieve the same results on a level base. Back in the late 90's threaded jets were very common then waterways moved to the now current design. The only difference with Arctic was they opted for cheap Chinese jets. Now Arctic has switched to the old style thread-ins(which are not without there problems either) Innovative doesnt mean going backwards to solve a quality problem. The castcore cover is great for the first couple years until they start to absorb the water vapor and become cumbersome and almost difficult to lift. I have yet to see a cover collapse from snow & ice. I have seen a 4/3 eps foam cover with stand 3 feet of wet snow. An H20 tub is just as efficient as an Arctic or any other "top" Tub. All high quality tubs are in part just cents apart per month in cost & all veterans in the industry know this. Ive seen a 2006 Calspa cost the exact same as a 2006 Arctic so.... H20 is new but the quality & experience are there. I will say the 1st yr tubs didnt have the same quality look as they do now. I personally think the Glacier is a nice model but its not better than the Radium IMO. The wet test will decide for the poster which is the best for them. No offense to Arctic corporate but Tom never used over inflated posts to represent the company

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Hi Great White,

Efficiency - Ah, the quagmire of efficiency. To the good side of this, society's attention to green issues has begun to ratchet up attention on efficiency within the spa industry. I think between this, and the current economic conditions, we are seeing fewer of the really, really bad energy-use offenders out there. The California Energy Compliance Testing that was done earlier this year has been a start, but self-reporting has lead to some fairly comical statements. IMHO Cal Poly's testing is fraught with inaccuracies and is going to require a lot of work before it really represents any real benefit to the consumer. On the topic of testing, Blue Falls Manufacturing (manufacturer of Arctic Spas) is working with the Canadian Federal Government to develop a much more relevant set of testing criteria for the spa industry domestically - however at this time the Alberta Reseach Council's report on Thermal Performance Test of Spas remains, to my knowledge, the only 3rd party scientific study done on cold weather efficiency of hot tubs. What this test clearly stated (and I believe as you read, accurately) was that Arctic Spas use less power, particularly as the temperature drops, than any other of the spas in this study. I am not sure what confused other posters on this topic, the results are quite clear and quite decisive in the favor of the Arctic product.

Vern, I see the HS coming out on top overall. I see the Arctic winning at some temps but considering the water volume difference between the Arctic and the HS if you calculate a higher volume for the HS it will come out the winner in even more catagorys. Sorry I guess I am reading it differently. Add to that a thicker cover and I think you'll see the Arctic can hold it's own but the HS was the true winner. Besides Arctic garnered the test to there specs which IMO skews the results. And who cares anyway when we are talking pennys.

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Hi Great White,

Efficiency - Ah, the quagmire of efficiency. To the good side of this, society's attention to green issues has begun to ratchet up attention on efficiency within the spa industry. I think between this, and the current economic conditions, we are seeing fewer of the really, really bad energy-use offenders out there. The California Energy Compliance Testing that was done earlier this year has been a start, but self-reporting has lead to some fairly comical statements. IMHO Cal Poly's testing is fraught with inaccuracies and is going to require a lot of work before it really represents any real benefit to the consumer. On the topic of testing, Blue Falls Manufacturing (manufacturer of Arctic Spas) is working with the Canadian Federal Government to develop a much more relevant set of testing criteria for the spa industry domestically - however at this time the Alberta Reseach Council's report on Thermal Performance Test of Spas remains, to my knowledge, the only 3rd party scientific study done on cold weather efficiency of hot tubs. What this test clearly stated (and I believe as you read, accurately) was that Arctic Spas use less power, particularly as the temperature drops, than any other of the spas in this study. I am not sure what confused other posters on this topic, the results are quite clear and quite decisive in the favor of the Arctic product.

Vern, I see the HS coming out on top overall. I see the Arctic winning at some temps but considering the water volume difference between the Arctic and the HS if you calculate a higher volume for the HS it will come out the winner in even more catagorys. Sorry I guess I am reading it differently. Add to that a thicker cover and I think you'll see the Arctic can hold it's own but the HS was the true winner. Besides Arctic garnered the test to there specs which IMO skews the results. And who cares anyway when we are talking pennys.

Of course, welcome to your own opinion. The Hot Springs did not run any filtration during the test, which likely help it achieve the position it did. We did not garnered (sic) to there (sic) specs actually. Once we bought all the spas we could not be involved at all. The Alberta Research Council is mandated to do 3rd party testing by our provincial government in many different areas including manufacturing, oil and gas, advanced materials - they are not in the business of fixing results for hot tub companies I assure you. Additionally, if the cover mattered it should be a part of the spa, its like saying you could add more insulation if you wanted to. I do take your point however, that we are not arguing over huge amounts of money.

Cheers!

Vern

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That was a nice inflated sales pitch response. H2O uses Aquaflo xp3 pumps & a aquaflo circ master pump which is more than capable of pulling water through the new "super" filter from Arctic. H2O use the Gecko In.xe pack on their tubs which I find more durable the the MClass. "Reflex Torsion Hose" Seriously??? Lets be honest is just a pretty name. The floor is a great product but every maker that has now utilized a good sealed floor system can achieve the same results on a level base. Back in the late 90's threaded jets were very common then waterways moved to the now current design. The only difference with Arctic was they opted for cheap Chinese jets. Now Arctic has switched to the old style thread-ins(which are not without there problems either) Innovative doesnt mean going backwards to solve a quality problem. The castcore cover is great for the first couple years until they start to absorb the water vapor and become cumbersome and almost difficult to lift. I have yet to see a cover collapse from snow & ice. I have seen a 4/3 eps foam cover with stand 3 feet of wet snow. An H20 tub is just as efficient as an Arctic or any other "top" Tub. All high quality tubs are in part just cents apart per month in cost & all veterans in the industry know this. Ive seen a 2006 Calspa cost the exact same as a 2006 Arctic so.... H20 is new but the quality & experience are there. I will say the 1st yr tubs didnt have the same quality look as they do now. I personally think the Glacier is a nice model but its not better than the Radium IMO. The wet test will decide for the poster which is the best for them. No offense to Arctic corporate but Tom never used over inflated posts to represent the company

After reading Andrews negative post, I wanted to do a little more research to make sure we were comparing apples to apples here. First off the warranty. The H20 is a good warranty, but it only offers a three year warranty on equipment and controls per their website. The Arctic has a five year warranty across the board. Also the Radium is a little smaller tub then the Glacier but not by much. The Glacier is 86 x 86, so pretty close there. Now the tubs themselves are two different model types. The Radium would be a little closer to the Arctic Cub with the lounger seat in the spa. So if you like the lounger, you may also look at the Cub when wet testing the spas.

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"...Additionally, to provide the power that our Active Filtration system requires, a small circulation pump would be completely inadequate. They simply cannot draw water effectively through a depth filter like our 1 micron Silver Sentinel. One of our pumps on low speed uses a very comparable amount of energy to accomplish the same task as a 24 filtration pump, and as it does so, it adds to the ambient heat inside the cabinet, which in turn, reduces heater cycles...."

Speaking as a mechanical engineer I can truthfully say that's a load of sales driven BS. A circ pump WILL pull water through a fine filter - just a lot more slowly than a main pump on low speed. The math is simple, i.e. gallons per hour * runtime. A good example being that if you're only running the main pump for two hours per day, then the circ pump's flow rate can be 1/12 of that and still pump exactly the same volume of water per day.

Most of us joined this forum for unbiased, neutral advise from end users, and not to receive sales pitches.

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Most of us joined this forum for unbiased, neutral advise from end users, and not to receive sales pitches.

Personally, I'm already happy with the hot tub I've got, so I'm just here for entertainment purposes. I love it when spa salespeople turn on the heat - it's like watching Billy Mays, but without the crack! (probably!) Throw in that crazy guy from Colorado, and I'm in haven - er, heaven!

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Okay, point taken, and sincere apologies. The quoted material was an observation of our work here, not worldwide, and I should not have made a blanket statement. Question though - as a mechie, would you think that the efficiency of a circ. pump system is greater or lesser, or similar to that of a cycled filtration system? Cheers! Vern

"...Additionally, to provide the power that our Active Filtration system requires, a small circulation pump would be completely inadequate. They simply cannot draw water effectively through a depth filter like our 1 micron Silver Sentinel. One of our pumps on low speed uses a very comparable amount of energy to accomplish the same task as a 24 filtration pump, and as it does so, it adds to the ambient heat inside the cabinet, which in turn, reduces heater cycles...."

Speaking as a mechanical engineer I can truthfully say that's a load of sales driven BS. A circ pump WILL pull water through a fine filter - just a lot more slowly than a main pump on low speed. The math is simple, i.e. gallons per hour * runtime. A good example being that if you're only running the main pump for two hours per day, then the circ pump's flow rate can be 1/12 of that and still pump exactly the same volume of water per day.

Most of us joined this forum for unbiased, neutral advise from end users, and not to receive sales pitches.

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Okay, point taken, and sincere apologies. The quoted material was an observation of our work here, not worldwide, and I should not have made a blanket statement. Question though - as a mechie, would you think that the efficiency of a circ. pump system is greater or lesser, or similar to that of a cycled filtration system? Cheers! Vern

"...Additionally, to provide the power that our Active Filtration system requires, a small circulation pump would be completely inadequate. They simply cannot draw water effectively through a depth filter like our 1 micron Silver Sentinel. One of our pumps on low speed uses a very comparable amount of energy to accomplish the same task as a 24 filtration pump, and as it does so, it adds to the ambient heat inside the cabinet, which in turn, reduces heater cycles...."

Speaking as a mechanical engineer I can truthfully say that's a load of sales driven BS. A circ pump WILL pull water through a fine filter - just a lot more slowly than a main pump on low speed. The math is simple, i.e. gallons per hour * runtime. A good example being that if you're only running the main pump for two hours per day, then the circ pump's flow rate can be 1/12 of that and still pump exactly the same volume of water per day.

Most of us joined this forum for unbiased, neutral advise from end users, and not to receive sales pitches.

Hey Vern - no offence taken, I'm sure the tubs you sell are just fine, but that sure was a very long sales pitch of yours!

Regarding mechanical efficiencies, a good analogy is to think of a 24 hour circ pump as a Sunday driver doing maybe 30 mph. It's obviously gonna take him 10 hours to travel 300 miles. Now...think of the main pump at half speed as the same car doing 150 mph and getting there in 2 hours. They've both achieved the same thing, but who's gonna use the most gas? The guy who does it at 150 mph of course. The reason being non-linear frictional losses encountered by both the the drivetrain and wind resistance.

Similar losses occur in a hot tubs plumbing system, i.e. the faster you try and push water around, the more frictional losses occur due to 'drag' caused by angle joints, and the inside of the pipes. Again, this is not a linear equation as water begins to behave as more of a 'solid' at high velocities, requiring disproportionally more 'pumping' power, and ultimately a higher electric bill.

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Okay, point taken, and sincere apologies. The quoted material was an observation of our work here, not worldwide, and I should not have made a blanket statement. Question though - as a mechie, would you think that the efficiency of a circ. pump system is greater or lesser, or similar to that of a cycled filtration system? Cheers! Vern

"...Additionally, to provide the power that our Active Filtration system requires, a small circulation pump would be completely inadequate. They simply cannot draw water effectively through a depth filter like our 1 micron Silver Sentinel. One of our pumps on low speed uses a very comparable amount of energy to accomplish the same task as a 24 filtration pump, and as it does so, it adds to the ambient heat inside the cabinet, which in turn, reduces heater cycles...."

Speaking as a mechanical engineer I can truthfully say that's a load of sales driven BS. A circ pump WILL pull water through a fine filter - just a lot more slowly than a main pump on low speed. The math is simple, i.e. gallons per hour * runtime. A good example being that if you're only running the main pump for two hours per day, then the circ pump's flow rate can be 1/12 of that and still pump exactly the same volume of water per day.

Most of us joined this forum for unbiased, neutral advise from end users, and not to receive sales pitches.

Hey Vern - no offence taken, I'm sure the tubs you sell are just fine, but that sure was a very long sales pitch of yours!

Regarding mechanical efficiencies, a good analogy is to think of a 24 hour circ pump as a Sunday driver doing maybe 30 mph. It's obviously gonna take him 10 hours to travel 300 miles. Now...think of the main pump at half speed as the same car doing 150 mph and getting there in 2 hours. They've both achieved the same thing, but who's gonna use the most gas? The guy who does it at 150 mph of course. The reason being non-linear frictional losses encountered by both the the drivetrain and wind resistance.

Similar losses occur in a hot tubs plumbing system, i.e. the faster you try and push water around, the more frictional losses occur due to 'drag' caused by angle joints, and the inside of the pipes. Again, this is not a linear equation as water begins to behave as more of a 'solid' at high velocities, requiring disproportionally more 'pumping' power, and ultimately a higher electric bill.

Mikey,

*L* Again, my apologies. I have had wayyyy too many 4+ hour sales pitches in my past to always be brief, but I will spare you all that experience in the future. I really do wish to help our customers and to provide accurate information. Thanks for the kind reminder however. :) Okay, very interesting on this topic though - I have long wondered if there was more to it than just flow rate and runtime. I know of some projects here that have worked on swept rigid PVC fittings to alleviate some of the drag perhaps not so much focused on filtration but on improving jetting efficiency. Tomorrow I will hassle some of the engineers here to see what they think...*L*

Looking back, I think the point I was actually trying to get at is that in our experience, our desire to have a powerful top-skimming vortex as a key part of our filtration concept as well as the use of fine filter media led us to cycled filtration.

Have a great night...

V

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