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D.P. Roberts

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Everything posted by D.P. Roberts

  1. Fetzervalve - just prepare those jets with some 3 in 1 oil and some gauze pads. And you're gonna need about 10 quarts of antifreeze, preferably Prestone. No, make that Quaker state.
  2. This problem could be solved a lot more easily, and with less arguing. The vast majority of spa shoppers on this site are here to get feedback on a specific manufacturer, model, or dealer - and a specific price. However, once they obtain the information they're looking for, they disappear, never to be heard from again. If they do come back, they usually state vague information - they don't want to say the name of the dealer, or simply say they "feel they got a good price." I'm not sure why they do this - perhaps they're afraid that they didn't get a good deal after all, or that they somehow still want to keep their information private / anonymous? This board could be an incredibly powerful negotiating tool if consumers would be willing to give feedback on their purchases. When you buy a tub, give the name of the dealer, the model you purchased, and the price you paid (including delivery, accessories, or whatever). Sure, prices will vary from one dealer to the next, for a variety of reasons. However, it would at least give consumers a real starting point based on real sales numbers, instead of these rather theoretical observations about margins. When I go to buy a car (or an appliance, or whatever), I don't research the dealer's margins, or the manufacturer's margins. I go to the car sites and find out what the car has actually been selling for. Then, when I go to a dealer, I don't have to haggle - I just explain to the dealer that his price is too high, and give the range based on the research I've done. If he can't give me a price in that range, I walk out.
  3. This argument reminds me of the ones about the Hydro Spas from a few years ago, or the H20 spas from a few years before that, or even the Keys Backyard spas that Lowe's and Home Depot used to sell 10 years ago. I'll bet you could resurrect those old threads, and the arguments there would be exactly the same. "Box box" tubs are sold at a lower cost and lower margin. They may or may not be as "good" as the national brands, but the track record from the big box stores says that today's brand won't be around tomorrow. Know what you're getting yourself into. National brands cost more. For some people, dealer support, manufacturer longevity, and the ability to try out the spa before you buy it are worth the extra price. For some people, that sort of stuff isn't worth paying for. Is anyone really arguing that mom'n'pop local dealers are as cost-efficient as a big box store? Is anyone else really arguing that Strong spas is just as likely to be around in 10 years as Watkins or Jacuzzi, just because they're being sold at Costco? We're now arguing about the exact amount of Costco's margin? Is any of this minutiae really helpful? Some people think wet testing and dealer support are important; if you're one of those people, buy the national brand. If those sorts of things aren't important to you, buy whatever brand Costco is selling today. End of story.
  4. When you two were having your "my place is colder than your place" discussion, I checked the average temperatures for Duluth & Regina (I know temperatures will vary across the province, but it made for an easier comparison). Regina was about 8 deg. F colder in average low temperatures each month. Canada wins! Or loses, depending on your point of view. For those of you who are Grandee fans: 1) Do you like the foot jets? It looks like it only has two, and they don't look well placed (assuming you're sitting in one of the corner seats with the Moto-Massage). 2) Do you like the "bullet jets" (the 26 "directional precision jets" like the ones right above the Moto-Massagers & the other corner seat). I've always felt that bullet jets don't help much, and make my skin itchy after a while. 26 of the 39 jets in the spa are bullet jets, and that concerns me.
  5. 12 grand Canadian? I would have thought the Grandee was 12 grand US. Does anyone have a price on a Grandee in the US?
  6. You do sound happy with your tub, and that's great. I had never heard of H20 before reading this thread, so I did some searching, & one of the first results I found was for a thread on this forum from three months ago: You then said this: So overall - especially considering the fact that you're now having a problem with your tub's heater- it sounds like you've not had a great experience with H20. I think most people who buy a "name brand" tub would be really upset if they spent $10-$15,000 only to find that they don't get "any beneficial massage" and are "just plain out not satisfied". People who spend less, on the other hand, are often less satisfied (as you appear to be) - but they did save thousands of dollars. All I'm trying to say is that you get what you pay for. There doesn't seem to be a way to get name-brand quality for a fraction of the price. It may be acceptable for you, and it may be a compromise worth making. I just think that most people who buy a "discount" tub and think that they're going to get the same experience as a "name brand" end up being disappointed.
  7. Personally, I'm already happy with the hot tub I've got, so I'm just here for entertainment purposes. I love it when spa salespeople turn on the heat - it's like watching Billy Mays, but without the crack! (probably!) Throw in that crazy guy from Colorado, and I'm in haven - er, heaven!
  8. Personally, I wouldn't care where a tub is made. What matters is how well the tub is built, and how well it was designed/engineered. Where a particular engineer lives isn't nearly as important as whether he/she is a good engineer. I'm not trying to say that Arctic is good or bad. I'm just saying that the location of the factory & its employees, at least from a quality standpoint, is irrelevant. If you had to buy snow tires, would you buy ones designed by an engineer in Malaysia or a kid at McDonald's in Finland? If you had to buy a beach umbrella, would you buy one made by an engineer in Canada or a beach bum in Tahiti? In both cases, you'd go with the well-engineered one, right?
  9. However, water level is critical. I know it sounds like I'm playing devil's advocate here, but I'd really like to hear the following: A ) Doesn't the water get "stale" when the filter's not running? B ) Isn't cycling on and off bad for the pump? C ) Does it use more or less energy than a small circ pump running 24/7? D ) Wouldn't the ozone be running less often than in a 24/7 circ pump? I'm really not trying to pick on Marquis here, I'm just curious about this. I do see how the "vortex" thing may work, but I like the weir gate design in other spas too - there's an inevitable backflow when the filter pump shuts off, and a weir gate can trap all those "floaties" that would otherwise go back in the spa. On the other hand, I really like how the Marquis filter doesn't take up too much room (especially in a valuable corner seat). I also think the waterfall over the filter visually appealing - I generally don't like water features (most look like they came straight out of a 1970's custom van), but I think Marquis's design is very elegant.
  10. I don't understand hot tubs that have filters in the corner seats. I REALLY don't understand hot tubs that don't have enough foot jets. You see, if you have even two "good" seats, that would imply two people sitting in them. People, for the most part, have two feet each. Thus, two good seats would require four good foot jets. If you want four "good" seats (i.e. lounges or captain's chairs), you would need EIGHT good foot jets. And yet some manufacturers only put one or two foot jets in the whole spa. If I had to guess, I would say that most people who get sore feet are ON their feet all day. This implies manual labor. Desk jockeys, on the other hand, don't get sore feet, but get sore shoulders from being hunched over a computer all day. People who sit at desks generally make more money and can afford hot tubs, while many manual laborers cannot. I think it's unfair and biased! Equal treat for equal feet!
  11. Was that dealer's retail prices, or was there tax involved? I'm curious as to how this would compare with US prices.
  12. I've been wondering about that for several years - why certain brands show up on forums, and others don't. Also, there seem to be "running trends" - one manufacturer shows up for a while, and then others run for a while. I have two theories on this: 1) It's random. Our "sample size" on this forum is too small to accurately reflect the thousands upon thousands of spas that are sold every year. 2) Search engines. The average consumer does not know the names of any spa websites. Instead, they Google. so, if you're looking for "Jacuzzi spa prices" or "Sundance Spa repair" right now, chances are you're going to get some results for this particular forum instead of the other spa forums, which have different spa threads going now. When the search results turn up threads on this forum, they end up posting here too. For example, Sundance does have a lot of threads going here right now, but other times it's other brands. The same is true for other spa web sites - if you look at all the other spa forums right now, they have different brands being researched. As for spa quality, I don't think Sundance is necessarily any better or worse than Jacuzzi, when considering equivalent lines. However, I must admit that I'm biased, as I've been a happy Sundance owner for many years. On the other hand, if you look at the currrent threads about Sundance repairs on this forum, you'll see that many of these tubs are quite old (most seem to be in the 8-10 year range). I would think that most spas (like most cars, appliances, etc.) in that age range might need a few repairs now and again. My own Sundance tub is 9 or 10 years old now - it had a problem with one of the jets leaking a few years ago, but I got it fixed and it's been fine since. I would think that experience is somewhat typical for this level of spa.
  13. Everybody who is shopping for a hot tub should read this thread! It just shows you that no matter what you "know" about the manufacturing, quality, and price of a hot tub, you don't know anything about the jet pressure, the seat comfort, and the fact that some seats (even in high end spas) are uncomfortable to some people but soothing to others. The actual experience of wet testing makes ALL the difference. Keep going, and good luck!
  14. Many manufacturers have spas that are no wider than 6'2". Many have 3 person spas in that range, most 4-person spas might be an inch or two wider than that. I don't know of any sites that compare various brands for you, but you might want to consider the following: Hot Spring: Prodigy Caldera: San Gabriel Sundance: Marin (6'3" wide, but is more of a top-end model) Jacuzzi J-325 (6'4" wide) Marquis Mirage is 77" wide, but one corner is shorter, which may work for you You might also check out Limelight & Hotspot (cheaper brands made by Hot Spring) Dimension One, Artesian, and others.
  15. $8300 sounds like a lot for a 3 year old tub with a one year warranty. You can get lots of other new tubs with full warranties for about that much. Of course, if you like the Summit it may be worth it - how much would the dealer want for a new Summit? Tubs seem to lose their value rapidly - you might take a look at Craigslist, used tubs from other dealers, or other used sources to see how much used tubs are generally going for in your area. Honestly, I would be surprised if any 3 year old tubs sell for even half of what the original price was. On the other hand, I personally think buying a used tub is a good value. Because of the rapid depreciation, you can get a late-model tub for a good value. My most recent tub was used, refurbished from the dealer as well. That was 2-3 years ago now, with no problems, and I'm glad I did it.
  16. No. When you go to BBB.org and search for a company, it automatically redirects you to the bbb office where the company headquarters is located - I would guess that the file & the reporting of each incident is done at the local office nearest to the company's headquarters. Thermospas and D1 came up pretty easily. I had a little bit more trouble with Hot Spring because many of their dealers have "Hot Spring" in their name, so I narrowed the search to California, because I know they are headquartered in Southern California. And as for "trying to find high numbers": I looked up Thermospas and D1 because the OP is looking at those two brands. I looked up Hot Spring because I know they're the largest, so I thought it would be a good reference point for the number of complaints. I'd be happy to look up other companies if you thing the links I posted are somehow biased or unrepresentative. Of course, you or others can just go to bbb.org to look them up yourselves too. Also, I really don't think there's anything "magic" about the BBB numbers or reports. I just like using the BBB as a reference because they actually research every complaint. With other web sites & "spa industry awards", you have no idea why a company is ranked the way they are, or whether complaints are truly legitimate and representative.
  17. Wow! $15 to $25,000! That is a LOT of money! I really have two questions for you: 1) Why have you narrowed it down to these two brands? In no particular order, I would also check out the following brands: Hot Spring Sundance Jacuzzi Artesian Arctic Caldera Marquis Just go to their web sites - they all have dealer locators and will tell you if there's a dealer in your area. The main point to this is that almost all of these brands will have very good spas for about $10,000. At least around here, the top-of-the-line spas will be about $12,000, maybe $14,000 if you live in an expensive market. Either way, I don't see any reason to spend more than $15,000 on a tub. 2) When checking out whether a salesperson's claims about the quality of their product, I often go to the Better Business Bureau's web site (BBB to see how many complaints have been filed against that company. If there are hardly any complaints, I would say that the salesperson's claims generally hold up. If there are many complaints, I would say that product doesn't do what the salesperson claims it does. Check out the Thermospas page here: Thermospas According to this report, Thermospas has had 112 complaints in the last 36 months. Check out the Dimension One page here: Dimension One Spas According to that page, D1 has had 10 complaints in the last 36 months. From what I've heard Watkins Manufacturing: the company that makes Hot Spring Spas - is the largest manufacturer of hot tubs. So, to use them as a reference point, here's their report: Watkins Manufacturing Hot Spring Spas According to that report, Watkins has had 19 complaints in the last 36 months. D1 only had 10, but they're also a smaller company, so I would say those two are about the same. I'm not sure where Thermospas fits, but if it's a SMALLER company than Hot Spring or D1 and has ten times as many complaints - that's not a good thing. 3) THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT: The previous posters are correct in stating that what you heard is a $25,000 sales presentation. The proof is in the pudding - or in this case, the SOAKING. Have you actually tried out either of these spas? The great thing about a lot of hot tub dealers is that you can go to their store, where they have working tubs with hot water in them that you can actually try out. Many have dedicated rooms with sample tubs so you can try them out privately. Personally, I would not buy a hot tub without taking a "test soak".
  18. AFAIK, most dealers sell the Cameo and Optima for the same price.
  19. Many (like you and I) hate haggling, but many people enjoy it. Even many who don't enjoy it EXPECT it. Like Chas and Spatech said - there are more than enough people out there who will NOT buy a spa unless the dealer comes down in price. So, the dealers have to leave room in their pricing to haggle. It's funny that you mentioned Big Macs, Sears, etc. I work for a major bookstore chain, & you wouldn't think people would want to haggle over the price of books, but they do. I get asked to haggle for a price quite frequently - whether it's honoring a competitor's price, a competitor's coupon, taking a discount for a slightly worn item, or just flat-out haggling. INTERESTING (at least I think so) ECONOMIC SIDE NOTE: I just heard a theory as to why car insurance is really expensive in some cities (like Philadelphia) when it's really cheap in others. When you account for the crime rate, accident rates, income, cost of cars, etc., some places like Philly are just really expensive, for no obvious reason. What apparently happens is that a certain amount of motorists don't have insurance, so the insured motorists have to pay more (as their provider has to foot the bill if they get in an accident). When rates go up, more people decide they can't afford insurance, and drive without it. So, more uninsured motorists means more accidents where the insured driver has to get his own provider to pay, which raises the premiums AGAIN, which means more people quit paying AGAIN. It's a vicious cycle. I mention this because I think hot tub pricing is the same way. Customers don't want to haggle, but they think they must haggle to get the best price. Dealers would love to sell for a flat price, but they know customers will walk if they don't come down in price. Neither the shopper nor the dealer wants to haggle, but we're stuck with this system.
  20. 1. First of all, congratulations on your new spa! 2. Secondly, I would think your dealer can answer most of your questions - and I'm somewhat surprised that he or she didn't already do so. 3. I have not priced out Marquis Spas myself, but $6000 for a spa of that size & those features seems outstanding. 4. On most spas, you can run power conduit into the two corners on the side facing the control panel. Again, your dealer can tell you for sure. 5. The numbers in the jets refers to the amount of water that flows through the jet, with higher numbers meaning more water. For example, HK8 pushes 8 gallons per minute through the jet, HK 40 is 40 gallons per minute, etc. I'm not sure what the HK means, but it's probably irrelevant and/or marketing. 6. The tub filters the water by running the 2-speed filter on low speed (and unless you like "flame wars", the less said about that, the better). Aside from the filters themselves, your water may also be ozonated, sanitized, Frogged, etc., depending on whether you purchased those options with the spa. I really hope your dealer will go through all of this with you when you get the spa installed. 7. $6000 for a 44-jet, 2-pump, 400 gallon Marquis? Seriously? I would think they'd run $8000-$10,000 or more. Has anyone else on this forum gotten similar deals?
  21. Mark- I have not been able to test a Marquis myself (no dealers within hundreds of miles). I've been impressed with Marquis as a company, as well as their models and features. However, I've wondered about the non-spinning jets. As a NEUTRAL, UNBIASED customer, I'd be interested in hearing how YOU felt Marquis' jets felt in comparison to the bigger brands like Hot Spring and Sundance. (BTW, did the caps work there? Did my lack of interest in another "Marquis jet flame war" come across adequately?)
  22. I've had two Sundance spas of that era, and I don't think you can turn the power off without flipping the breaker (or turning it off at the disconnect). Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
  23. Floor drains. If you've ever drained a tub, you'll know that a drain on the floor (instead of a side wall) is absolutely necessary. If you've ever taken a bath or a shower - and I hope you have - you'll know that having a drain in the floor is NECESSARY. Otherwise, you're left with several inches of dirty water you can't drain. I know it's more expensive to build a tub with a floor drain, but if you don't have one you can't finish draining your tub!
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